The University of Northern Iowa Family Business Center's podcast features Heidi Vermeer Quest discussing the importance of next generation leadership and their focus on succeeding. The episode emphasizes the importance of self-awareness, family employment policies, buy-sell agreements, and forgiveness for personal growth. The speakers also discussed the importance of mentorship for next generations within family businesses and the value of personality assessments and healthy family dynamics.

Transcription

Katie: You're listening to Never Go Against the Family, a podcast by the University of Northern Iowa Family Business Center. Today, Dan is interviewing Heidi Vermeer Quest. Heidi runs our next generation peer groups here at the Family Business Center and comes from a family business herself. She grew up with Vermeer Corporation outside of Pella Iowa and now operates VQ consulting with her husband, Heidi and Dan. Today we talk about the importance of all things, the next generation, what they should be taking to heart and how they need to get into leadership. Keep listening to hear their conversation.

Dan: Hello, everyone. I'm Dan. Welcome to another episode of Never Go Against the family. So today, my guest is Heidi Vermeer Quist who we're so appreciative to have you on with us today, Heidi, I feel like I wanna say, our quote for our title comes obviously from The Godfather. And sometimes I think of you as the godmother of family business, interaction and holistic and getting people back together and able to have a family reunion again and all those things and I know you're instrumental in what you do with your own family, with the Vermeer family. But you also do a lot of consulting work with other families across the country. You do a lot of speaking in this space and I can see that you have a lot of passion for family business as do a lot of your family members, right? And so today, I'm hoping we can talk a little bit about next gen development. That's an area where you do a lot of work, do a lot of mentoring and work with next gens, especially those in Iowa, which is cool for us. And so if you could maybe just kind of walk us through a little bit about your process with next gen development, the types of things you like to focus on with next gens, especially, you know, those earlier in their career.

Heidi: Yeah. I'd be happy to because really, you know, a next gen. I guess I'd say I'm more of a now gen myself not, I'm not young like I was once Dan, not like a godmother. It also could go a little dark pretty fast, but I do think I do think potentially my own family members have probably seen the dark side and it's not pretty but with other families in business, I'm so nice. So, so nice. Because I'm from Pella, and we're all nice in Pella, at least to those who aren't related,

Dan:Extremely passive with a little bit of aggression if you get there.

Heidi: Oh, we're intense for sure. Oh, yeah. So when you say passion, that's very true because I grew up a third generation with the Vermeer family and did not feel like I really fit because I didn't have a ton of passion for manufacturing, particularly retail, iron equipment, particularly, not really a big, huge passion for me. What was great about Vermeer and still is great and just is part of my DNA for sure is our biblical principles and treating and how we treat people. And so I will always be very devoted and try to engage however is most helpful to the family and the family business at Vermeer. And so my passion with the next gens of any other business is trying to really help them to work through their own unique person that they are and seeing that there is no cookie cutter. We're all very different and it's very important for first and foremost us to understand who we are, how we're made, how we really well, what, what kinds of work do we do well, what kinds of work we do, we quite frankly not do very well, you know, and, and take time to be able to explore those things. I think the next gen peer groups that we've done at UNI, which have been really great. It's kind of a combination of education and support groups. It's kind of how I experience those and we meet every month to some degree. I think we just take off two months, sort of in the summer.

Dan: But so you can really speak to them, you know, I don't know that I fit here in terms of working with a family company and how can I contribute in other ways? Of course, is something that you've very much thrived at and then, you know, helping others kind of find their way, what, what kinds of things are helpful for them as they're thinking about boy, I feel like mom and dad really want me to come back or I feel, the o word, the obligation, those kind of mom and dad.

Heidi: If nobody encourages them to do it, I think there's a tendency for the next generation to feel the pressure.

Dan: Yeah. Self induced.

Heidi: A lot of times, very self induced and feel almost guilty if, if they don't go back. Now, there have been a few cases in which, the older generation has been, like, afraid to put that pressure on their kids and then they almost back off too much and they don't engage the next generation enough to be able to say, hey, you're welcome, you know,

Dan: There's a spot here for you.

Heidi: To check it out. And I mean, I do encourage that, that we never ensure, hey, there's a spot for you, you know, unless it's an obvious spot that you're gonna do well in. So the next, so the next gen and the older gen and relationship to them need to just take that proactive mindset of unpacking who is this person? And you know, as they get into college age, young twenties, I'm a big fan of getting some coaching, go through some career psychological testing. We take all of our next gens through psychological testing when they're college age at Vermeer. And I highly recommend

Dan: How intense is that I'm thinking

Heidi: Not that bad. Yeah, we don't put it on, we don't put them in straight jackets and shock them or anything like that. We do have them go meet with a clinical psychologist, not me, definitely somebody who's, you know, ethically not going to be related to them or have an outside relationship. And they do, yeah, a combination of some personality assessment. So we are looking to see where they may have any struggle from a psychological mental health standpoint? But also what are they interested in? We use the strong interest inventory. We've usually by then had them do the strengthsfinder, maybe the Myers Briggs, there's a combination of personality testing. So PMI and MCI, those are kind of the clinical inventories that we do have them take those as well.

Dan: All right, I'm writing some of this down.

Heidi: Yeah. Well, now we've done the, the strength finders of like, its own separate deal at a different time when they're younger. And then, like Vermeer, we do the Herman brain, they do the Herman brain personality type at Vermeer. So at other people's companies, a lot of times think about what you use with your employees use that with your family earlier than later because the two can overlap so well, you know, the strengths of the family can impact culture positively of the business, but the professional development of the business can really impact the family so deeply as well. I remember we did this Herman brain exercise at a family camp and my mom and my cousin from Arizona who don't really even know each other. He had a long beard and was a very, very creative guy. We got it like a spectrum of like the most extreme on this end of this. And my mom and Chris were right next to each other and they were hugging at the end and going like we discovered we're just alike.

Dan: That's really cool.

Heidi: That's really cool. Yeah, like the family bonding that can happen too by doing some of this assessment. It can be great as well as the team bonding.

Dan: So, allowing it to happen, at some level within a group discussion.

Heidi: Oh, yeah, it's great. Yeah. Certain assessments are good to do in a group like strengthsfinder like Herman brain like Myers Briggs, like, one that's popular right now is the Enneagram. You've probably heard about that one.

Dan: I don't think I have, but I'll write that down too.

Heidi: That's pretty hot right now. So are a little bit more like personality type tests. Whereas I do like some of them, I'd say that they may have a little bit more teeth in them about specifics, like what does it look like for their career path? What does it look like for their temperament style? 

Dan: Maybe I'm missing this a little bit. But where do you guide for once you get into that? What are your, you know, career type strengths and how does this, you know?

Heidi: Yeah, we use the strong interest inventory as one of the, I think there's also a Milan assessment that aligns really well with career interest and strengths in that regard. But we contract with another clinical psychologist to do like the whole battery of assessment and have sort of really individual focus and then help them think about, you know, what are they doing in terms of college or additional education or job choices, that sort of thing, just really encouraging that self awareness for in is probably step one for the next gen self awareness, not in like a self absorption way, but in an awareness way. If we are honest with ourselves in our current culture, that's not healthy. But this is about, I am respecting who Heidi is and my strengths and my weaknesses, aware, right? And, and learning how to embrace that same with, you know, you Dan and that your relationship to others and then trying to seek to understand others, being able to see them who they are.

Dan: I think that's a big key of what these personality things do is not only help you understand you but help you understand how to interact with those who aren't you, right? And trying to take some of that to heart is a big part of it. One thing I've already learned here just in the 10 minutes we've been chatting though is, you know, a lot of times I say this phrase, you know, make sure that your kids know there's a spot on the bus for them. That's not, I shouldn't be saying it like that. I should be saying, make sure you're talking to your kids about what they wanna do and if what they wanna do, you know, can find its way into being a resource for your company, then you have a match, right? And otherwise you might be putting somebody into a seat on the bus that just isn't a fit.

Heidi: Well, I think it can fit but I think you have to think about it from this standpoint again that I know. Right. So, this graphic, right? So the bus is the three spheres of family business. And when we're born, we all start off in the family part of the bus. So there's a spot for us on the bus, whether or not we're gonna get back, they have to take us. I know we're born. This is the only place in which real entitlement is allowed in my opinion. Yeah, I mean, I highly recommend not having entitlement in this area as much or this or unhealthy entitlement. What I mean by unhealthy entitlement is like, I don't earn it, you know, I don't show myself responsible enough to function here or here. Well and don't let those people there to let those people get in there. You know, now that's not to say that they're less important, right? Because actually there could be huge, huge impact for, you know, the cousin of mine who has some cognitive disability and she's just not probably gonna be able to work the day to day job on the manufacturing floor, probably anywhere else over here, nor does she have the cognitive capability to be able to be an owner herself?

Dan: She's gonna have to remain, probably have somebody be like her guarantor or her trust, maybe a bit of a passive owner from that standpoint.

Heidi: Right. But is her existence in our family? Huge? Absolutely. Does she have an impact on this whole system? For sure.

Dan: Probably more impact than other individuals have in some ways? Yeah.

Heidi: In fact, my grandma, Matilda, she would have said, and I'd say she was the beating heart in many ways. I mean, people still just like Matilda Vermeer, you know only wanted to be here. She had no interest in being down here really at all. Now she did, she did get into the ownership sphere to some degree, but she relied heavily on advisers that she trusted on her husband after he passed really on her kids. She really relied on them to help her with the ownership component. So again, I think the bus is a good one, but the clarity is not everybody has to fit on this part or this part. And nobody's gonna stay just in one area. Like you don't get born into the business, you have to find a way to get hired and you be qualified, which is why we have a family employment policy. Why?

Dan: That's the best practice is always have a family employment policy or as, as soon as you're able to, you know, first generation, second generation, it's usually in the second generation or sometimes in the third, we need all the help we can get and if, little Jimmy is all we can find then we got to hire him anyway, type of thing.

Heidi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's never too late to start writing the policy. That's correct. That's never too late. Just go ahead and do it right. Same guy on the prize. Yeah. And ownership too, like, not every business has a buy, sell agreement. Well, that's fine. And think about developing one and start getting going on it because you'll be glad you did. You won't, it won't be super fun but it's not, it's not real hard either, you know. So, anyway, I don't know if that helps but, but we're, we're, but we're often thinking about, kind of that balance of, of, here's your family system, kind of where are you and, and, and where are you thinking you might be? But then really your biggest priority is managing me, that is you, right? And, and being able to manage, what are your feelings? What are your thoughts? What are your behaviors? We talk about that a lot in our peer groups and a lot of the time I'm redirecting people because they're in what I call the ozone of others outcomes and old stuff. I think you've heard this, Dan, I did a great job of looking like you did hear this before.

Dan: I wanna let you go there though.

Heidi: Yeah. The ozone. Which is just, liberating as that next gen starts to learn. Oh. Oh, so, so I can't control what ant Fran thinks or says. No, you can't. Right? But being responsible to her not for her is what you're growing into. You know, now you are responsible for yourself. Oh, well, but they, I'm so mad at them and I, I'll never forgive them. Well, that might not be the smartest thing because you could forgive, forgive. Doesn't mean that you're saying what they did was ok. Forgive us saying I'm gonna let go of my anger. I've already said my piece once. It's probably all I need to say and I'm gonna move on and I'm gonna forgive, you know, like for your own self health. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so it's encouraging that the next generation to mature as humans to be more self-aware and self responsible and in relationship to others. Remember they're not responsible for others' outcomes and old stuff. Best thing we can do with the old stuff is learn from it. Best thing we can do with others and outcomes is pray about them and try to encourage as best we can. And that's about it like one step at a time.

Dan: But knowing that those things in that ozone are out of our control just are.

Heidi: Yep. Yep. It's ok that we care about them. I think that's part of how we're created but we gotta kind of stay in our lane of what's healthy control. Yeah.

Dan: And push our energies towards those things that we control.

Heidi: Yep.

Dan: So that we can improve, you know, of our own interactions with others, right? What part of that can we own and control? And what part can we not do that? So that becomes kind of a tricky dance, I suppose, doesn't it?

Heidi: And it is a dance. That's a great way to think of it and that you can only do your part of the dance.

Dan: All right. Well, this is awesome. I love talking to you, Heidi. You have such a great grasp for families interacting with business, of course. And I feel like you delved into a lot of different topics that we can go down the road of, you know, governance. I think things of that nature surely are gonna be coming up at some point, communication and healthy communication, you know. But for now, I think next gen, what I'm taking away today is a little bit of, let's, let's learn about who we are and who we're not and knowing who we are, how do we interact with others? How do we, you know? Yeah.

Heidi: And also I'd also just add, you know, sooner than later. Next gen is getting people to like and they really need to take ownership of it, identifying and having regular meetings with mentors, you know, identifying and getting, getting, getting some good counsel in their life. which, which might be a counselor, but it also might be, you know, somebody who's farther along in their career, nonfamily that, that you're just gonna ask them to go to lunch, you know, and you pay for the lunch for them. You know, you, you like, and you have your list of things, you know, you don't show up like you are, you know, with the teacher and expect them to just pull things out of you. You know, you need to learn and that's even part of, I think the growth for the next gen is learning how to be mentored, be mentored. Yeah.

Dan: And easier for the mentor. Did you have a mentor as a younger person?

Heidi: I've had lots of mentors.

Dan: Oh really? 

Heidi: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so much supervision, you know, just, is that something?

Dan: I know you have children, do you have any, you know, are they maybe too young to start those kinds of things or have you?

Heidi: Yeah. No, they are really kind of at the, at the right age. I mean, I think right now some of their mentors look a little bit more like their youth group leaders and some of that sort of thing because I've got teenagers, my son just started into college so he's got access to some great advisors and, and pros that, that he'll probably start to do some mentoring with. But he's also going to be done in the next couple of years going through our nice deep psychological assessment and we have put together, I don't know that we implement it as well as it could be. I'm sure there's room for improvement. But we do have a mentoring setup at Vermeer to try to set people up with outside of family mentors, but also within family mentors. So like I could, you know, be meeting on a regular basis with one of my more distant cousins swinging from different branches of the tree there.

Dan: Right. Right. Yeah, that's cool.

Heidi: Or my aunt or my dad was a mentor for a lot of people. So it's good and healthy for both sides of that relationship.

Dan: I'm sure. Right.

Heidi: Yeah, there's a lot of, well and one of my best mentors who's actually on our board, Kara Hayden is her name, she and she still is, but she, she is humble, which probably makes it for a good mentor as well. But she would always say, oh, we're really mentoring each other. Heidi and I, and I was like, ah, that's so sweet.

Dan: That is pretty cool, isn't it?

Heidi: She's like, I'm learning so much from you.

Dan: I feel like that's when, you know, you found the right mentor.

Heidi: Yeah. Well, and I'd say we've just become really good friends right over the years and, and so I think that's, yeah, a lot of my mentors really, now I would just call them really good friends. But, boy, oh, boy, I still look to them as wise, you know. So we just, we all need those people in our lives and they're out there.

Dan: I think that's a great point too, you know, trying to find them or helping, helping your kids, find them, helping your nieces and nephews find them. All right, some personality assessments, we can look at some, some identifications of our strengths and know that there may be a seat on the bus for us, but making sure it's the right seat is a good starting point for that next gen development. So this is awesome Heidi, I really appreciate it. I hope we can have you on again. To be honest with you, you do such a great job with young people, especially as they're getting ready to move into their family companies. You have such a unique skill set of a background as a family, business owner and employee. I think you were a Vermeer employee for a while, right? The department.

Heidi: Yeah, I was in the HR department and then really kind of came back, to, to develop our family office and it's been great. I've had, I've been able to sort of pass on the baton to the next family members that are very much engaged in leading in our family markets and let the new kids take over that type of thing. Yeah. And they're doing ok.

Dan: That's because you develop them. Well as next gens, I don't.

Heidi: Yeah. Well, and we do, we do also just give thanks to God because we could go south any time. But at the same time, we learned from those tough times too. So very true.

Dan: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, as I like to say, never go against the family. You can do anything you want but never go against the family. So thank you very much, Heidi. Thanks for being with us today.

Heidi: You're welcome. Thank you. You do a great job, Dan. Appreciate you too.

Katie: Thanks for listening to this episode of Never Go Against The Family, a podcast produced by the University of Northern Iowa Family Business Center. You can find more information about the center membership and upcoming events at https://unifamilybusinesscenter.com. As Vito Corleone advises, never go against the family.